Topic on Love, who, what, why?

I said I would put this up in a forum for those who'd like to read it. So, here it is. It's not a poem, but more of a discussion/philo I had with a friend. I feel it's a rather good paper on seeing another view of the subject. ------------------------------------------------------ My(Jeff’s) Topic Starter: Love, oh such a great word. Often misused. Yet, if it is such a great thing, how then do people misuse it? Well, it’s simple, people base love on what they want or claim they need. In doing that, they build attachment to the other person or thing. In that, they don’t create love, but fear. Fear of losing what they are attached to. For they feel that they need it to live, which we all know, is not the case. I may ‘love’ hamburgers, but I know that I can eat something else to live, such as lettuce. Perhaps, you may not understand that. Well, by having someone to cuddle with and to just overall make you feel better, that builds an attachment. A dependance on their comfort, and over time, even a short amount of time, you grow fearful of leaving it all behind. That fear, is often confused with love, as they tell themselves ‘I wouldn’t be afraid of this, if I wasn’t in love with them.’ Truly, I tell you, they were never in love. Yet, you can not tell the person who claims to be in love this, because they don’t understand, nor do they want to think it. The feelings which they are dealing with, are often too great for someone to penetrate their mind with ideas such as that. And so, they continue to live within the relationship which is already dead. What then, is ‘true’ love? Love is unconditional. There is nothing to be gained from the love of the other person. It is selflessness. In you giving all you have for the other, and expecting nothing in return. Yet, to do that, you must accept the other person completely. Accept them and their actions, for who they are, but that does not mean one must agree with their actions. Accepting is not agreeing. In this selfless accepting of the other person, in a relationship, it forms a strong bond. However, if the other does not feel the same, the bond is pretty one sided, and in this, hold nothing back from the other. If something bothers you about the other, tell them, because if you don’t, it will undermine the relationship. And if you truly did love them, you wouldn’t have let this happen. True love is in the form of friendship. Yes, the relationship should be the strength of the one between you and your closest friends. Because, if you can not confide in the one you call yours(bf/gf/husband/wife), then what good are they. This, however, is not building a dependance, but more of a mutual bond. And I would not tell someone secrets if I knew I could not trust them. Understand, that having someone to confide in, is not a dependance. Yet, if you view it as, if they are the only person you can go to and that you can’t live without them, then you created a dependancy. Do you understand? Yet, now, you have a relationship, that does not have any dependance upon the other, and you do things selflessly, and you accept the other for who and what they are. All this, does not even mean you love them. Love is a choice. No one can make you love someone or something, it’s your choice. Yet, if your love is a word, then it is not a choice. A word meaning, it doesn’t agree with the above, unconditional love. Perhaps, that may not even be a good word, but, selfless love. Don’t do things for your own gain. > < Think of that situation ****, your gf, has a tremendous problem with you, and you know something is wrong. You ask her, she says nothing, but you know there is. You try to fix things, but she rejects, and continues to build things up on you, disliking you more. All of these things, she won’t tell you. Next thing you know, she is running around with another guy, yet all you hear is about him and then you see her head on his shoulder. You knew something was wrong, yet she didn’t ever tell you, why? Why didn’t she tell you? You search your mind for a reason, things that you did wrong. To you, you can’t find anything wrong, yet to her everything is wrong. Again, you try to reach out and ask her what it is, yet again all you get to all your questions are ‘yes/no’ answers. By now, you would have been lying to yourself, building scenarios of what could be happening. She isn’t talking to me...maybe it’s her time of the month..or, maybe this other guy is just a good friend, yet why would she leave me, her bf for him. Perhaps, I’ll just wait for him to leave...yeah, leave, where did he come from in the first place? Out of no where, he comes down and trouble starts. Is she cheating? Why would she...she said she cared/loved me, why would she do that? What is she doing? What am I supposed to do? Should I confront her..yet, if I do, she will either break up with me or say something sweet and convincing. I don’t want to break up with her, because I really do care a lot about her. She said she did too. Why did she lie then? Wait, I can’t say she’s lying..because I can’t, no she won’t even talk to me about what the problem is. UGH! What am I supposed to do with this...I’ll wait just a little bit longer I guess, maybe I’ll see and find things out. Maybe this other guy will leave...but that won’t be any good either, because she would still have feelings for him and when he came again, would run back to him. Am I then just her play toy? Or are we both her play things? Why is she doing this? Why am I even with her? Why can’t I ever choose the right ones? Ah..I guess I’ll try to talk to her, yet as of late, that gets us...or me.. no where. Tomorrow I will...*sleeps* Read the above ****? I can pretty much guarantee you that you would feel like that, and that is how ** is feeling. And in finding out she was cheating on him, he was somewhat refreshed, he felt better, because he knew what was going on. And that all his heart ache isn’t without reason, but what he most likely suspected, was truth. There is nothing to hold against anyone. What is done is done, no reason in really arguing over the matter, but arguing is different than letting the people become aware of what they have done. Having full knowledge of the pain they caused someone. There is nothing to argue. The above is how I view ‘love’ some of it may be changed, as I didn’t write it straight through but had a few 6-7 breaks during it’s writing and perhaps may have missed something. Fill in, respond, whatever.>> > Jake’s Response: you are correct...many relationships are based on a co-dependancy. This is not necessarily a bad thing, specifically while such relationships are 'ripe'. When these relationships begin to sour and rot, and both parties are fearful to terminate it, then a problem arises and people do remain in a relationship that is already dead. I do not believe that there is anything wrong with trading comforts so long as it is understood that this is the nature of the relationship. now then...such relationships are NOT love, you are again correct. A more proper term would be 'i care for you' then 'i love you'. It does indeed show that there is a deep affection, but although very real, it is very different then love. Right now, there is a girl who i care rather strongly for...it is not love i feel for her tho'. (if ya wanna know ask about it later when i'm not freaked out by peoples reading over my shoulder...) I would like to start a relationship with her tho', because i DO care for her, and although she is in many ways the exact opposite of 'my type' it only makes me care for her more and i know that if i allow a relationship love may very well grow. (heh....now if only she'd hurry up and dump that twice-exed boyfriend....). as for the actual term 'love', i would have to say it has several different types which can all be termed as the same emotion because they are basically the same. Love comes from familiarity. to know someone is to love someone. I know and understand the canine genus and therefore when i see a member of it, i love that creature in generality. The same when a human sees another human, they do not need to know them to have a basic love for the other based on species familiarity. This aspect of love i have heard refered to as a basic 'human love', but it can be applied to other species that people are or are not part of. also, there is a love of those you hate. This sounds to be a pardox, but you have most likely experienced it. It could be argued this is more of a love of the conflict and challenge such a person presents. (don't you 'hate' it when people read over your shoulder?) It is really impossible to 'hate' someone without also 'loving' hir. i hate my sister's boyfriend (***). Part of this is i understand love and how it should be, and even if he also understands that he does not practice it towards anyone, but especially my sister. Still, on some basic level deep down i find love in my heart for him. I still want to kill the cock, but i understand him and therefore i would (even though i would not really want to) find it in my heart to forgive him if he ever realized what he is and truly tried to become something other than an ass. okay....i think that was all of the confusing stuff....on to the difference of terminology/definition stuff......another aspect would be the obvious 'grow old with you' love...reference the song from The Wedding Singer. It states this aspect quite well. In case you have not / do not want to watch that movie, i'll state it in my own words. I would best define this as a future-past love. Basically, it is such that you want to in the future look back and have a great past with this person. it is a love that is in the future and present. it tends to imply that you do not just love them now as they are, but as the grow and change you will love them along every step of their path through life, whatever form that may be...this could also probably be called love of the spirit. it commonly comes in two forms (although not limited to just those two). The first and most obvious is the spouse form. The getting married thing....i'm not gonna explain this in detail as it should be self-explanitory. The second is the kith and kin love. This is held for family members, and good friends. These are the people that are life-long...the ones you would expect to visit you after they are dead. Blood relatives, freinds that feel as close as blood, pets. It might be argued that the main difference between the spouse type o' this and the family type is sex...but i have not truly expereinced the spouse type in this life time so i will not attempt to define such a difference. (I do on the other hand know many friends whom i wish to keep in contact with all my life...and although i realize with most of them it will be difficult and probably wont happen). Then we come to the present love. These are the people whom you love in their current state fo being. This typically is defined as the young passionate flame of love that dies as soon as that new-ness dies. these relationships are often physical when in romantic aspects....and it is said that physical love does not last beyond each other's presence. As for the frienship type...these would best be defined as those people you like to be around, but you can't get too much of them...not sure if i have ever really experieced this one on the friendship side...hehe....by your definition you would argue this as not love but more of a physical lust, but i am speaking of something different....not sure how to describe the differences *frustrated sigh* ** next aspect we have is the past tense love. the love of what someone once was. this often comes in the form of a respect for an elder who has done alot. or it could be the fore last type i mentioned but after the person has grown and become different. (don't even try to deny that people grow and change and become different!). This is a feeling that will last...often i've found it to be remourseful in nature, not always tho. there! now i think i can define the differnce between the present love and more of a lust....the love lasts and the lust passes when you don't see them....maybe i'm wrong....*shrug* finally for this letter (i'm sure there are more aspects of love, but i'm rather running otuta steam for this sitting) is the guardian type. I don't really know if all people ever feel this type, but i know i do, and i mentioned it you the other night. I've found some people that either do not stand up for themselves at all or not enough or not in the right way or simply do not have the strength to stand up alone. and i 'protect' them. I do not really tell people i do this....i do not really consciously decide to do this...i just realize at some point that person X is now under my sphere of guarding. It does not neccessarily imply that person X is weak or inferior, although sometimes it means they are more innocent in their way of thinking. (i view myself as a warrior, i am certain others do not). For example, ***. ***, the flaming queer guy that is always hanging out with me. He does not always stand up for himself, not because he can't or is afraid to...it is just against his nature. So there are times i have stood up for him. Recent example, *** kept pranking his house (among others including you *** who i consider under my guard), and after asking *** to stop and then politely telling him to stop, he didn't. So i pranked *** house. *** (if he finds out who did it heh heh) will either take it as a message to back off (doubt it) or will direct his pranking at me. Either way, that takes the heat off *** (and others), wether it mean the heat stop or weather it brings it to me, and i am much more capable of a prank war. Now that is just one example it, but it is not limited as such. *** for example, of all my friends not formally trained in combat would probably be the best fighter, and someone i know also considers himself a warrior. Still, if i saw him fighting a battle i knew he could not win alone i would jump in and even the odds, and if i saw an ambush coming for him, i would direct it away. (i'm kinda trying to point out this doesn't mean i think less of people....just that i value their frienship and wish to protect it). i dunno how well this one will be understood but it is cetain an aspect of 'love' that i feel. Note that i have called all of these defined aspects aspects. by that i mean that it is part of a love that one would feel for someone/something, not all of the love. it is very easy to feel that a hate aspect along with a physical aspect and a guardian aspect.the above may not be reality, but thats what reality looks like from my angle. (o! and what an interesting angle it is) My(Jeff’s) Reply to Jake’s Your definition of the past/future love, that would fall under the def. of my 'selfless' love. You accept who they are and what they are, not holding it against them. You may look at your current bf/gf and say, I could spend the rest of my life with them. That doesn't mean that you love them. As I said, love is a choice. You have to tell yourself, you love the person(s), but with that love, what will come? If you expect anything, you created a dependancy. Do you not agree? Perhaps that then wasn't a good example. Ok, if you base your love for the person on a certain aspect or aspects of the other, that is where your problem is. Because, if they lose that aspect that you 'loved' them for, you lose your so called love for them. Would you lable that love? As long as I get something out of you while we are in 'love', I'll love ya. Now if you said, I love the other for everything that they do, however, I may not agree with what they do, but I do accept them for it. That sense of loss is never there. You don't expect to recieve anything out of them for your love. Granted, that through actions, they too will show it back, then you have 2 selfless lovers(not in terms of sex, sex being called 'love' is a disgrace), they each provide for each others needs. Now, again, I will not claim that the 2 selfless lovers will work as well. After all, we are just humans in this worldly world. Things could undermine the relationship. Such as: Jobs, money, friends, family, and various other things. Don't think that 'love' can conquer all. It doesn't. My advice for those who are seeking 'love' would be, build friendships. Either it male or female. Those are what last, and in those, the dependancy of 'touchy-feely' don't really exist. Truly, what makes a friend different from a bf/gf? Should there be a difference? Surely, you would say, that the bf/gf have more rights, I don't disagree there, but why do they have those rights? Is it lust your truly after, and then their friendship next? Lust. That too is another strange word, and often not used enough. Lust can be defined as craving or thirsty for something. If you crave someone to hold you, if that is what you base the relationship on, it's on lust. If you crave for someone to tell you your special and beautiful, that is based on lust. If you feel that you need to have sex, lust again. The list goes on and on. Yet, let yourself be the judge to where the limit of friendship and lust begins. I tell you this however, if you are in a close friendship with a person of the opposite gender I would suggest you not pursue the lustful side of it. In this, I mean, 'friends with privileges' Such as, they are my friend, but I'll still have sex or make out with them. When the friendship comes to that, you are no longer truly friends. But, toys. Objects of lust for one another. You no longer hold them as you did before, however you may feel that they are closer. Don't lie to yourselves, they aren't. Parts of the past few above paragraphs is also stated kinda as Jake's 'presant love' the passionate love. I tell you this, that is not love. If you wish to argue that point, go ahead. But first explain to me, on how they change their 'heart' so quickly. Lust, all in it for the pleasure. And pleasure. Why do people not see it as insignificant. Really, most pleasure is a waste. It lasts for a few moments, and most often the consequences are high. And then they tell themselves, it was worth the risk. Bah! Pleasures don't last, good and strong relationships do. Which would you prefer? If you prefer the pleasure, be glad, for the world is catered to you, and feel free to live with the motto, "Ignorance is bliss". As for Jake's guardian love or such. That, I do believe would be close to love in it's true form. You protect them expecting not much in return. If you stand up for someone, you don't out right expect them to give you anything. Overtime, you will most likely expect them to show either respect of the same feelings which you show towards them. I can't claim that I do this, though I do do it in my head. > Accept all for who they are, and hopefully, they will accept you. JeffI said I would put this up in a forum for those who'd like to read it. Written December 14th, 2001 © on Dec 13 2001 03:24 PM PST   10 • 9 • 8